Discussion Topics Get Involved De-Conversins Apologetics Exposed

1:1 Belief Vs Claims 2:1 Why the Bible Is False 3:1 The Bible You Don't Know 4:1 We Are All Godless 5:1 Lets Be Honest 6:1 Faith vs Science

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1:1 Belief vs Claims 1:2 Negative Impact Christianity Causes 1:3 Hasn't Christianity Fueled Good?

2:1 Why the Bible Is False 2:2 Failed Prophecies 2:3 False Historical Claims 2:4 Wrong About Nature 2:5 Contradictions

3:1 The Bible's Secrets 3:2 Ignored Words 3:3 Immoral God/Bible 3:4 History & Changes 3:5 Bible Stories Re-examined

4:1 We Are All Godless 4:2 God Doesn't Exist 4:3 Jesus Never Existed 4:4 Atheism, Humanism, & Morality

5:1 Lets Be Honest 5:2 Faith & Questions To Ask 5:3 What To Avoid (Apologetic Tactics)

6:1 Faith vs Science 6:2 Intelligent Design vs Evolution 6:3 Soul vs Cognitive Science 6:4 Old vs Young Earth

Origin: Jesus Christ

Prior to 33-36 CE, when Paul started sharing his stories, there was no mention of the figure Jesus Christ nor did this savior have any known following. So where did the story of Jesus come from? As with all great stories told over the centuries the story of Jesus has many origins and developed more and more during each retelling. What started out as Paul's imagination and personal interpentation of Hebrew scriptures eventually became the Jesus we know today through an accumilation of traits pulled from various stories and storytellers.

Did Paul Persecute Jesus?

Wasn't Paul known for persecuting early Christians and Jesus? Paul only persecuted the rapidly spreading belief of a Jewish messiah being revealed. He was not persecuting the belief in the specific messiah Jesus Christ as no one was even mentioning such a savior. It is also important to keep in mind that the book of Acts and its story of Paul's journey to Damascus are not written by Paul.

SIDE NOTE: Prior to the story of Jesus there were many alleged saviors believed to be the Jewish messiah predicted by Hebrew scriptures. Some were made-up figures and others were real people with their own followers. Although none of these alleged saviors were known as Jesus Christ historians still use the terms "Christian" and "Christianity" as blanket terms to describe all early Jewish messiah cults.

Scripture & Paul's Imagination

The story of Jesus Christ originated with Paul during a time when many followers of the Jewish faith were looking for the savior foretold by scriptures. His story is greatly different from what is found in the gospels. Paul believed that Jesus did live on earth once but no one witnessed any of his miracles or deeds firsthand and he was not crucified by humans. According to Paul all knowledge of Jesus was revealed to a chosen few through "divinely guided" interpretations of Hebrew scriptures. Paul was the first to make the story of Jesus publicly known.

Based On Scripture

According to Paul his knowledge of Jesus was revealed to him through a divinely guided interpetation of Hebrew scriptures instead of a historic event just 20 years earlier. The knowledge of Jesus dying for our sins, being buried, and rising on the third day is all "according to the scriptures" and "made known through the prophetic writings." Paul never mentions having any encounter with Jesus and only quotes scripture, not Jesus. He specifically says that his knowledge of Jesus was not received from another man nor was it taught to him.

Related Verses

Exclusive Knowledge

According to Paul only a chosen group were given knowledge of Jesus. Gnosticism is usually associated with a particular sect of Christians but the word itself refers to having divinely given knowledge. Paul himself along with the others mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 were all claimed gnostics. Only they received the exclusive knowledge of Jesus Christ, after Jesus' supposed death, when Jesus appeared to them just as he finally appeared to Paul which was through a divine interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures.

Related Verses

Not Known to the Public

According to Paul not a single person, other than those with divinely given knowledge in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, was aware of Jesus' significance until Paul himself personally shared this knowledge with the public. Paul states that his knowledge of Jesus was previously a mystery and that it was kept secret since the world began. Paul even describes the future coming of Jesus as a revelation, something that will happen for the first time, and dismisses any "returning" aspect. He even tells us that Jesus was not killed by the Romans or any other human.

Related Verses

Based On Scripture

Romans 16:25-26 "Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him"

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"

Romans 10:11 "For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

Note that Paul did not say "Jesus saith" but rather "scripture saith."

Galatians 1:11-12 "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

It is important to note that it was a revelation OF Jesus Christ and not FROM Jesus Christ as some modern Bibles like the NIV falsely translate it.

Exclusive Knowledge

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

Not Known to the Public

Ephesians 3:1-5 "For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles— Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets."

Ephesians 6:19 "Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,"

Romans 16:25-26 "Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith—"

Colossians 4:3 "And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains."

Colossians 2:2 "My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ"

Ephesians 1:9 "he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ"

Jesus' coming referred to as a "COMING" without any returning aspect.
1 Corinthians 4:5, 11:26, 15:23, 16:22, 2 Peter 1:16, 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23, James 5:7, 5:8, 2 Thessalonians 1:10, 2:1-2, 2:8, Hebrews 10:37, 1 John 2:28

Jesus' coming referred to as a "APPEARANCE" without any returning aspect.
1 John 2:28, Colossians 3:4, 1 Peter 5:4, 1 Timothy 6:14-16, 2 Timothy 4:1, Titus 2:13

Jesus' coming referred to as a "REVELATION" which is something that will happen for the first time.
1 Peter 4:13, 1 Peter 5:1, 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 2 Thessalonians 2:6, 1 Peter 1:13, 1 Corinthians 1:7

NOTE:Hebrews 9:28 says Jesus will appear a second time but this passage does not say he will appear before his followers a second time, just simply appear back on earth where his first appearance was unknown to humans. In 1 Corinthians 15:3-7 Jesus does not appear in flesh and blood but only in the same manner he appeared to Paul, by being revealed by the Spirt as mentioned in Ephesians 3:1-5.

Jesus Was NOT Crucified By Humans

Did you know the earlier Christians believed Jesus was crucified on a tree and not a cross? This is why Acts 5:30, Acts 10:39, Acts 13:29, 1 Peter 2:24, and Galatians 3:13 all mention Jesus being hung on a tree and not a crucifix. Same method of death, just a different tool.

If Jesus dying for our sins was not known to man publicly prior to Paul then he could not have been killed by the Jews or Romans like later Christians believed. Paul tells us that the "Rulers of this Age" crucified Jesus but makes it very clear that these rulers were NOT HUMANS.

Ephesians 6:12 tells us that "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Secondly in 1 Corinthians 2 it states that the Rulers of this Age would not have killed Jesus if they knew it was part of God's plan for glory and salvation for mankind. Obviously that excludes the possibility of the Jews, Romans, or any human as the executioners in question since they would all eagerly take part in aiding their own salvation.

So who or what where the Rulers of this Age that Paul referred to? There is one group of rulers from Biblical scriptures who would not want to see God's plan of glory and salvation for mankind set into motion. Ephesians 3:9-10 clearly states that there are rulers and authorities in Heaven that are unaware of God's wisdom and Smyrneans 6:1 says these rulers in Heaven do not believe in the blood of Jesus. Have you guessed who the rulers are yet that Paul believes crucified Jesus? The answer is in Ephesians 6:11-12 where evil wicked demons in Heaven are referred to as the rulers of this age.

Where did the idea of a son come from?

We can't know for sure what was going through Paul's crazy mind but the idea of God having a son was likely also derived from scriptures. Proverbs 30:4 mentions God having a son while asking "and what is his son's name?" Probably more influential is the book of Psalms chapter 2 where God has a conversation with his "begotten son." Although this is a reference to King David (God's other begotten son, yes John 3:16 was wrong when it said Jesus was his only begotten son). Paul clearly interpreted it to be referring to the savior he was looking for.

Psalms 2:7-12
"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him."

Proverbs 30:4
"Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?"

Was Jesus a Mythical Figure?

Although several savior figures were believed to only exist in a mythical realm Paul believed that Jesus Christ was born of flesh and blood. Paul believed Jesus existed on earth but knowledge of him being the messiah, the son of god, and being killed for the sins of the world was only revealed divinely to a chosen few and not publicly known to any other human until it was revealed to Paul and after he shared the story with others.

What about James?

Yes, Paul says he knew a man who claimed to be the brother of the messiah Paul was preaching about but not even Jesus' supposed brother shared such knowledge. Paul says that his knowledge of Jesus came from a divinely guided interpretation of scriptures and not from another man.

Origin of Jesus' name

If Jesus was merely revealed through Hebrew scriptures like Paul claims then where did his name derive from? First off, Jesus' actual and original name is not Jesus, it is Yahu'shuah. This is the name which Paul and all the other earliest Christians knew him by. The name Yahu'shuah simply means "Yahweh saves" or "salvation." The Hebrew word yahu'shuah is often used in the Tanach (Old Testament) as well as in the official Jewish daily and festival Prayer Books where it is generally translated as "salvation". Jesus was also a very common and generic name for the time.

English = Jesus
Latin = Iesus
Greek = lesous
Arabic = Yeshuah
Hebrew = Yahu'shuah

Legends Of A Real Person(s)

The writers of the Gospels re-wrote the story of Jesus to make him more lifelike and relatable to the average person and their real world struggles. In doing so certain events, such as Jesus' birth, were now being set during recent historical events and legends derived from a regular person or persons were being incorporated into the Gospel stories.

Historical Jesus

Certain stories in the Gospels suggest that aspects of Jesus' life were loosely inspired by legends of an actual person or persons. Historians have dubbed this person(s) "Historical Jesus" because an actual name is not known. Outside of scripture there is nothing to suggest that this person(s) existed but certain scriptural writings about Jesus, such as the resurrection story, sound more like they were based on a real life regular human being than a demi-god figure.

The Crucifixion & Resurrection

The image many Christians have in their heads of Jesus Christ being crucified and resurrected is simply an exaggerated retelling of the collapsing and revival of a regular human.

Death from crucifixion normally takes several days but Matthew 27:46 says Jesus was taken down after only six hours and Luke 23:44-46 says he was taken down after only three hours. This suggests that the person being referred to as Jesus did not actually die from crucifixion but only appeared to be dead. Jesus was likely just subdued by liquid contained in the vinegar coated sponge which he drank from immediately before he appeared to be dead (John 19:29-30). Even Pontius Pilate in Mark 15:44 doubts that the man being crucified could already be dead so soon and the soldiers had to break the legs of the other two men to speed up their deaths before the Sabbath day.

We also know that the person referred to as Jesus was not clinically dead when taken to the sealed tomb since the herbs Joseph of Arimathea brought to the tomb were aloes. These are healing, not embalming herbs. The original greek scriptures speak of a resuscitation, not a resurrection, and the person was simply resuscitated with the healing herbs and not resurrected from the dead as most Churches preach today. After being healed and resuscitated the man likely fled and spent the rest of his life hiding from the Romans which is why the tomb was discovered empty.

NOTE: The "ascension" to Heaven is not part of or found in any of the earliest copies of the gospels. The ascension was added to the end of Mark and Luke much later. Learn more

Based On Local Ancient Mythologies

Religions don't start from scratch, they are all variations or alterations of earlier religions or mythological beliefs. Christianity is simply an offshoot of its parent religion Judaism and Judaism is the offshoot of its own parent religions. Since all religions are influenced from older beliefs it's no surprise to discover that many aspects of Jesus' life are simply retellings of stories, told through the generations, about ancient local mythologies. Below are some of the past savior gods that dramatically influenced and shaped our image of Jesus the Christ.

Horus
"the Way, the Truth, the Life"

Of all the savior-gods worshiped Horus may have contributed more to the story of Christ than any other figure. Inscribed about 3,500 years ago [1500 years before Jesus' alleged advent] on the walls of the Temple at Luxor were images of the Annunciation, Immaculate Conception, and Adoration of Horus. It tells of Thoth announcing to the virgin Isis that she will conceive Horus; with Kneph the "Holy Ghost" impregnating the virgin; and with the birth being attended by three kings, or magi, bearing gifts. Countless parallels can be found when comparing stories of Horus to the stories of Jesus.

In the catacombs at Rome are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis - the original "Madonna and Child."

Dionysus - Sion Christ

Dionysus is a Greek remake of the Egyptian god Osiris, whose cult extended throughout a large part of the ancient world for thousands of years. During the 1st century BCE he was worshiped by the Jews. Dionysus' symbol was "IES," which may have been the prototype for "Iesus" or "Jesus." Dionysus also was attributed the usual savior god characteristics such as immaculate conception, dying and rising, and performing miracles.

Zoroaster of Persia

The religion of Zoroaster was founded circa 628-551 BCE in ancient Persia and roused mankind in the need for hating a devil, the belief of a paradise, last judgment, and resurrection of the dead.

Mithras of Persia

Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism probably influenced early Christianity with their beliefs the most. Mithras was around 100 years before Jesus and according to the Book of Origins, the Canon of the Mithrasic faith, "the universe was created through Mithras, and Mithras was born into the world to save humanity from the attacks of the evil one, Ahriman, who was opposed to human beings. Mithras released the goodness Ahriman had stolen from humanity, and then died to the world, going to the underworld to destroy the servants of Ahriman and bind Ahriman there forever. Then He returned to the earth to teach humanity His commandments and begin Mysteries and Rites which would help humans remember His acts on our behalf. Because of His actions, we can choose good without the overwhelming power of evil, even though evil's influence can still seem powerful because our minds believe it is. Because of His teachings, we know that the purpose of our lives is to serve others in the name of Mithras."

Jesus sun discs

Sun Worship

Most of the myths related to savior gods have their roots in personifications of the sun, which has been worshiped by ancient man and depicted in cultural art as far back as 10,000 BCE. This mysterious glowing object in the sky brought sight, warmth, and security every day and protected us from the cold, blind, predator filled darkness. The sun was people's savior and this is why many savior gods are depicted as the sun. The solar disc or crown of thorns often pictured upon Jesus' head is derived from the solar discs and crown of sun rays of previous savior sun gods.

Jesus solar disc sun gods

Clockwise from top left: Syrian sun god, Palmyrene deities Beelsham (supreme god) & Malakb (sun god), Zoroaster, Tawa Kachina the sun god of the Hopi Tribe, Helios the Greek sun god, Jesus the Hebrew sun god.

Everlasting Life

The ancient Egyptians noticed that if the sun comes up every day food will grow, people can live and they will reproduce so life can continue after they pass away. They believed as long as the sun came up every day there would always be life on earth, thus the sun became a symbol of ever lasting life on earth.

Christmas & Easter

Ancient Egyptians noticed that from summer solstice to the winter solstice as the sun moves south, from the perspective of the northern hemisphere, days became shorter and colder. This was traditionally thought to be symbolic of death since the crops would start dying off and the warmth of the sun's life become scarcer and replaced by the bitter cold. On December 22nd the sun makes it to the lowest point in the sky and stops traveling south. During the three darkest days of the year (22nd, 23rd, 24th) the sun does not travel south or north and appears to stand still as if it had died for the three days. On December 25th the sun starts moving north again foreshadowing longer days and the "coming back to life" notion of spring.

The resurrection of the sun was not celebrated until the spring equinox, or Easter, because that's when the sun officially over powers the darkness and daytime becomes longer than night.